Q: In Mike Boyle's last article for T-nation (as well as this article from his site: http://michaelboyle.biz/documents/articles/Is%20Rotation%20Necessary.pdf) he pretty much stated that he has taken all exercises and warm up movements that involve lumbar rotation out of his programs, including scorpions, spinal erector stretches, bent knee twists etc. This has left me feeling a little unsure about how to train my clients, as obviously some of the stuff he doesn't like is stuff that is directly recommended in Magnificent Mobility, which I always use to design my warm up routines. What's your take on the whole deal?
A:
#1. Mike Boyle is one smart dude and probably the most quotable coach ever. The article linked above is a fantastic read. On a side note, I once ate an entire pizza at his house. I rule!
#2. I too use Magnificent Mobility for the bulk of my warm-ups with my own clients. As you well know, this industry is ever evolving and changing (it never stays the same). What was "good" for us at one point (the "low fat" craze in the 80's and 90's), is now "bad" (boy was that retarded). The thing about many fitness products and books that come out, is that information is often outdated within 6-12 months because of new research or data that comes out. This is why there are 2nd, 3rd, even 4th editions on some books.
The same can be said about Magnificent Mobility (and Inside/Out for that matter). I know for a fact that both Eric and Mike would exclude "some" of the movements advocated in the dvd (prone scorpions, and bent knee twists come to mind) based off a lot of the new data that exists which say that the lumbar spine should be trained with STABILITY in mind, and not MOBILITY.
That being said, it's STILL one of the best tools out there as far as learning how to properly warm-up. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if we get a MM 2nd edition soon.
#3. And lets remember to not throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I know there are a lot of trainers out there who are now reluctant to have their clients perform cable woodchops or any other movements that include rotation. Personally, I like to make sure that clients are able to PREVENT rotation before I train rotation (healthy dose of planks, Pallof Presses, etc etc). But that's not to say that I don't train rotation to some capacity; I mean come on....it IS a normal part of human movement. It's inevitable.
Cable Woodchops are perfectly fine, so long as the client is rotatating "through the chest" and NOT the lumbar spine. Stretching the lumbar spine is "okay" so long as it fits the needs of the client (someone who has Anterior Pelvic Tilt for example) AND they DO NOT go into HYPER-extension. Big difference. The latter point being one of the main reasons I am not a big fan of yoga.
All in all, certain liberties have to be taken into consideration and it speaks volumes that you're keep up-to-date with current literature and data. We need more trainers like you out there.
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- Tony Gentilcore
- is a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist (CSCS) and Certified Personal Trainer (CPT) through the NSCA and is located in the greater Boston area. A regular contributing author on t-nation.com, as well as various other fitness sites, he specializes in physique enhancement, fat loss, nutrition, and program design. For further information, contact him at tgentilcore18@yahoo.com
5 comments:
Awesome post Tony, thanks so much for answering my question.
A couple more exercises I wanted to get your take on
1. Yoga twist - the ROM is not very large on this one so as far as I can see, it's still ok to use. Do you agree or do you think this one should be put on the scrapheap as well?
2. Warrior lunge with a twist - is the twist part a good idea or no? I figure not since the rotation would be coming entirely from the lumbar region, but I wanted to hear your take on that.
Secondly, I find it interesting that you say that erector spinae stretches are ok for people in anterior pelvic tilt - especially since those are the people most likely to have low back pain and in his t-nation article Mike Boyle says that those people are the MOST susceptible to getting pain from too much lumbar ROM. He seems adamant that rotational stretches are the worst thing to do *specifically* for those with low back issues. With that in mind, why do you still see them as being ok?
Also, a second edition MM? Argh! My fitness product spending habit is getting out of control already as it is! I can't deal with any more new releases!
Thanks as always for the great insight Tony. Your blog is just an insanely great resource.
Yoga twist is fine. Warrior lunge should be done in a way that the client "twists" the entire body as one (ie: lock the abs to the pelvis) and they rotate. There shouldn't be too much lumbar rotation anyways.
Concerning the lower back stretching. I would put a HUGE asterisk there. Mike Robertson mentioned stretching of the low back in his "Hips Don't Lie" article and he was adament in saying that for certain populations it's alright (if done correctly) and for some it's crap. And for the record, I agree with Boyle in that rotational stretches are atrocious. It's when people go TOO far, when they get into trouble.
I just don't like to make blanket statements that "x" exercise is purely bad (unless we're talking about leg curls and leg presses.....those are pure bunk). In the end, it all depends
I actually emailed Eric about this after reading that article, and his reply is pretty much what you mentioned. He did however say this:
"My experience has been that I can get the job done and keep people healthy without scorpions, yoga twists, etc - and these are movements that guys in pain are doing more often than those who aren't."
So I guess most twisting work is bad for mobility/prehab...it's also hard to do a proper cable woodchop unless you separate them into 2 distinct movements, 1) pulling the bar towards your torso(resisting rotation), and then 2) thoracic rotation(producing rotation). Probably easier to do kneeling(1 or both legs).
I'll also add that concerning the stretching of the lumbar spine for people who have APT: I'd put that at the BOTTOM of the list as far as what needs to be addressed.
Stretching of the hip flexors, hip rotators, lots of posterior chain work, and lots of dynamic flexibility drills would be a bit more crucial IMO.
Also: thanks for the feedback Galapogos
So just to clarify - you say rotational stretches are terrible, so does that mean you don't do them at all? What erector spinae stretches do you use then? Kneeling with butt on calves and leaning forward? Any other recommended erector stretches?
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